Opinião | Como os conservadores pensam sobre a morte de George Floyd e BLM

Vou começar com isso. Patrick vai ficar, ele tem toda a capacidade de intervir e fazer perguntas complementares. Depois de fazer a metade, vou dar a você a palavra para liderar. E vou fazer exatamente o mesmo. E não há nenhum problema aqui. Você pode adivinhar muito bem o que vamos perguntar a você. Então, a primeira pergunta, e vou falar sobre cada um de vocês. E por falar nisso, Jeremiah, você é de Michigan, correto?

Sim senhor.

está bem. Vou perguntar a cada um de vocês. E estou vendo de onde todos eles vêm, e isso é incrível. Esta é a única coisa boa sobre COVID, quando eu olho para isso, esta é a América, ou pelo menos esta é a América de Trump de todos os estados que estão representados aqui. Então, a primeira coisa é, eu quero uma palavra ou frase para descrever Donald Trump. Jeremiah de Michigan, vou começar com você.

Sinto muito. Perdi a primeira parte, uma frase para descrevê-la?

Palavra ou frase. A propósito, estou indo bem aqui com você?

sim.

E você me ouve bem?

sim.

sim.

Só quero ter certeza, porque há outro lugar para onde posso me mudar neste lugar. Mas se estou bem, é melhor porque está perto. Estou em Londres, por falar nisso. Eu nunca fiz um grupo de foco em Londres, então de vez em quando, aqui, eu tenho um sotaque. está bem. Jeremiah, dê-me uma palavra ou frase para descrever Donald Trump.

Excêntrico.

Evelyn do Texas.

Patriota.

Louis do Arizona. Um verdadeiro patriota que ama nosso país.

Josh de Wisconsin.

Positivo.

Nancy, de Nova Jersey. Um líder.

Ann, da Carolina do Sul.

Um verdadeiro exemplo americano da América.

Martha da Geórgia. Implacável, implacável. Kathryn do Arizona.

Brilhante, americano.

Taylor de Ohio.

Apaixonado.

Larry da Carolina do Sul.

Um narcisista que fez um ótimo trabalho.

Ok, Larry, você vai levar um chute na bunda pela próxima hora e meia, mas todo o propósito por trás disso. Alex da Flórida.

Entendimento.

Diana do Colorado.

Forte e teimoso.

James, do Arkansas.

Negrito.

Wanda de Indiana.

Ele é teimoso.

Então, quando você olha para trás, estou apenas curioso para levantar minha mão porque temos que tirar isso para que possamos fazer as outras músicas. Quantos de vocês pensam que foram eleitos presidente e que a eleição foi roubada? Ok, temos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 de 14. Você representa os eleitores de Trump em todo o país. Esta é exatamente a porcentagem agora de pessoas do Trump que pensam que foi roubado. Posso pegar três ou quatro dessas sete pessoas que pensam que foi roubado? Que provas você tem?

Estou no Arizona, então estou passando pela auditoria de Maricopa agora. Eu estava no comício Stop The Steal e vi um monte de coisas estranhas. Mas no condado de Maricopa, minha maior pergunta, Frank, é: por que todo mundo está tentando se esconder? Se você não tem nada a esconder, tudo bem, então você seria transparente. Mas o nosso quadro de supervisores que já deveriam estar presos, tudo bem, porque desafiaram intimações, etc., tudo bem, isso me diz, e eu sei que há outras coisas, mas isso me diz que há fraude.

está bem. Alguem mais? Jeremiah, por que você acha que a eleição foi roubada de Trump? Que provas você tem?

Bem, eu começaria dizendo que a parte roubada ainda não está clara. E acho que essa é provavelmente a maior dúvida que tenho, é que realmente não sinto que alguém tenha investigado isso completamente. Familiarizado com Michigan, Condado de Antrim, no estado norte de lá. Fomos um dos primeiros a relatar a anomalia, com 90% dessa pequena cidade votando em Trump. E descobrimos que os votos eram na verdade para o presidente Biden. E eles voltaram e olharam para aquilo. E eles disseram, oh não, nós corrigimos, porque mudamos de volta. E não acho que a pergunta seja feita ou formulada da maneira certa, mesmo na mídia, como se os votos tivessem mudado em primeiro lugar, quem os mudou? E por que eles mudaram de novo? Quer dizer, para dizer que foi roubado, para mim pessoalmente, ainda estou fora. Eu quero ver uma investigação completa. Extraia todo o software. Observe os algoritmos e certifique-se. Se você me mostrar uma prova de que não foi, eu aceito.

Vejamos mais dois de vocês que acham que foi roubado.

Eu gostaria-

Ana.

está bem. Tenho conversado com várias pessoas no Heritage, incluindo Hans von Spakovsky, que supervisiona a Heritage Foundation com fraude eleitoral comprovada, não apenas nesta eleição, mas no passado. Também sou uma mulher na comissão distrital do meu distrito. E no dia da eleição, recebi relatórios de membros de nossos membros votantes dos ônibus que chegavam às casas de saúde para recolher as cédulas. E na Carolina do Sul, você pode coletar legalmente 12 cédulas. Mas uma mulher disse, ei, tenho que relatar que minha mãe votou. Minha mãe tem demência. Ela está em coma. Não há como ela votar. Portanto, estamos recebendo relatórios de várias fontes de fraude eleitoral comprovada. Agora ele está fazendo com que os tribunais reconheçam essas reivindicações.

Posso pedir a mais um de vocês para explicar por que acha que a eleição foi roubada?

Aqui em nova camisa

Sim, continue. Siga em frente.

OK sinto muito. Portanto, aqui em Nova Jersey, meu voto e vários de meus familiares que fizeram seus votos pelo correio ainda não foram contados. Eles nem mesmo passaram. Então você vai ao site, confere, ainda está pendente. Agora, eu sei que sou um estado azul. Mas meu voto ainda está pendente.

Hm. Ok, quero mudar para onde estamos agora, que é 18 de maio de 2021. Vou te dar outro nome. E eu gostaria de uma palavra ou frase para descrever essa pessoa. Quando você ouve o nome dessa pessoa, o que você pensa? E agora vou na ordem oposta. Quando digo “George Floyd”, Wanda, que palavra ou frase vem à mente?

Isso é uma tragédia.

James, do Arkansas.

Ruim.

Evelyn do Texas.

ODed.

Diana do Colorado.

Doloroso.

Alex da Flórida.

Viciado.

Eu não posso ouvi-lo.

Viciado.

Larry da Carolina do Sul.

Assassinado

Taylor de Ohio.

Tragédia.

Kathryn do Arizona.

Indivíduo com problemas.

Josh de Wisconsin.

Divisivo.

Diga novamente.

Divisivo.

Nancy, de Nova Jersey.

Uma situação triste.

Jeremiah, pode abaixar a mão, por favor? Nós vemos você. Nós sabemos que você está aí. Você está no meu canto esquerdo. Você tem que fazer isso porque fica ruim na TV. Jeremiah de Michigan.

Tempestade perfeita de decisões trágicas.

Louis do Arizona.

Infeliz. Mas ele também participou do que aconteceu.

Martha da Geórgia.

Trágico.

Ann, da Carolina do Sul.

Uma circunstância trágica com um criminoso.

Evelyn do Texas.

Já respondi, mas vou repetir. ODed.

Ok, eu não sabia que tinha você. Então, por favor, me explique enquanto me recosto na cadeira. Se você me vir sentado, sou eu no meu modo de aprendizagem porque não entendo. Ouvi dizer como você respondeu a Donald Trump e a fraude eleitoral. E você foi imediato. Tipo, a resposta acabou de entrar. Não houve pausa. Eu perguntei sobre George Floyd. Eu sei que todo mundo sabe quem ele é. Eu sei que todo mundo sabe o que aconteceu. E, no entanto, demorou muito para ele me dar uma palavra ou frase para descrevê-lo. Por que você meditou por tanto tempo? Por favor, explique o atraso para mim. Por que você não me respondeu imediatamente? Eu preciso entender isso. Algum.

Eu acho que- [INTERPOSING VOICES]

Alex. Siga em frente.

Bem, eu não quero falar por todos. Mas acho que com Trump, mesmo sendo presidente, ele é uma figura muito menos polêmica do que George Floyd. E estamos tentando moderar nossas respostas. Estamos na frente das câmeras. Portanto, temos que realmente pensar sobre o que devemos dizer em comparação com, digamos, como nos sentimos sobre Trump.

Louis do Arizona.

Para mim-

Louis do Arizona.

Sinto muito.

Sim, acho que um quadro foi feito quando o vídeo foi lançado. Eu sempre disse que tem que haver mais quando eles têm a câmera corporal e tudo ao seu redor. Mas eles não mostraram o que era: estava na parte de trás do carro. E ele estava dizendo que estava sufocando ou palavras nesse sentido. E isso não saiu por um longo tempo. Como indivíduo, isso realmente faz você se perguntar. E ao ouvir alguns dos especialistas do julgamento dizerem que ele teria morrido, agora acho nojento o que o policial fez. Não me interprete mal. Mas acho que George Floyd teve um grande papel e uma grande parte no fato de que ele poderia facilmente ter se sentado no carro e acabado com ele.

Martha, vá em frente.

Para mim, foi mais uma reação humana porque assistir aquele vídeo foi tão horrível. Eu sou mãe e avó. E apenas a menção de seu nome lembra aquele vídeo. É uma daquelas coisas, por exemplo, se você assistiu a alguns dos vídeos da morte de Daniel Pearl e outras coisas assim, são coisas que você não consegue parar de assistir. E então você responde quando ouve o nome.

Bom também-

Alguém me diga como você se sentiu quando viu aquele vídeo.

“Ele nos pediu uma palavra sobre George Floyd.” E foi isso que realmente me fez parar e fazer uma pausa. Se eu tivesse algumas frases, teria sido muito mais fácil. Quer dizer, quem era ele? Bem, ele era um viciado em drogas que era um criminoso que resistiu à prisão e se colocou em uma posição onde o que aconteceu com ele aconteceu. Se ele não tivesse resistido à prisão, isso não teria acontecido.

Quem concorda com isso? Quem concorda com isso? Levantem suas mãos.

Tudo bem, Ann, diga-me por quê.

Eu venho de uma perspectiva única. A manobra não é um procedimento policial normal. Eu sei que um cara da patrulha de Nova York não tem algo assim. Mas eu entendo que o deles fez. Ele não pretendia matar a pessoa. Então, se alguma coisa, teria sido homicídio culposo. O oficial se tornou um espantalho para discussão. Não foi brutalidade policial intencional. Em qualquer caso, acho que a frase não se adequava às circunstâncias. E como um oficial pode saber que alguém está chapado de alguma coisa? Às vezes não dá para saber até que eles comecem a agir de maneira incomum, como ele fez, a partir do qual os policiais suspeitariam que as drogas são um fator. E como você lida com alguém tão alto, é como se eles tivessem uma força sobre-humana. E você precisa de quatro ou cinco homens para derrubar uma senhora de 85 libras. E me diga, eu estive lá.

Taylor, vejo você balançando a cabeça. Por favor explique.

Eu definitivamente sinto que durante … se isso foi há um ano e uma reação instintiva, eu sinto que poderíamos facilmente dizer que ele ainda é uma pessoa que morreu. Então, obviamente, foi horrível de assistir. E foi horrível de assistir. Minha educação veio mais tarde, quando vi os depoimentos e testemunhas e todas as diferentes pessoas entrando no tribunal em Minnesota. Y cuando mostraron el ángulo diferente de la cámara corporal que nunca se había lanzado, fue entonces cuando pensé, oh, no es lo que se retrató en los medios durante meses y meses, que era solo racismo y eso fue intencional y que se estaban encubriendo um ao outro. Não houve encobrimento porque claramente havia filmagens de todos os ângulos. E aí agora a gente consegue ver esse ângulo que era do policial que nunca estava ligado, que quando eu vi que ele nunca estava no pescoço, pensei, como eu poderia dizer que ele não conseguia respirar quando estava ligado? o topo da espinha? Então, quando eu vi isso, foi onde eu tracei a linha na areia de, bem, eu não deveria ter sido condenada por nada, exceto pelo que Ann disse, como talvez homicídio culposo. Mas eu sinto que definitivamente não houve intenções maliciosas. Eu não acho que as três coisas pelas quais ele foi condenado [INAUDIBLE] Acho que foi desnecessário.

Bem, deixe-me perguntar a todos vocês, quantos de vocês acham que o policial deveria ter sido condenado por assassinato?

Que tipo de assassinato?

Do que ele foi condenado. Quantos de vocês acham que foi uma frase correta? Larry, você faz. Martha, você faz. E isso é. Quantos você acha que o policial não deveria ter sido condenado, de que estava apenas fazendo seu trabalho? Levantem suas mãos. Ok, então você concorda que ele é culpado de alguma coisa. Mas ele não acha que é assassinato. Vamos continuar com isso. James, do Arkansas, qual é sua reação ao veredicto? Qual é a sua reação a toda a situação do George Floyd? E então Wanda abaixo.

Não pude sentar no julgamento, ouvir todas as evidências. Eu vi o vídeo. E parte do vídeo foi quando o colocaram naquela viatura, naquele carro da polícia. Ele estava começando a dizer que era claustrofóbico. E eu sou claustrofóbico. E eu sei que tipo de reação você pode ter quando eles o colocam em uma posição como essa. E acho que o oficial provavelmente era culpado de homicídio culposo. Deveria ter, mesmo olhando, deveria ter deixado George se levantar. Eu deveria ter saído disso antes de sair. Acho que seria óbvio de ver. Mas você sabe, é apenas uma situação triste para George Floyd. É uma situação triste para Chauvin, uma situação triste para a nação que isso tenha acontecido. Mas homicídio culposo, eu deveria ter deixado ele pegar.

Wanda e então Diana.

Eu concordo com James: homicídio culposo. O assassinato parece ter a intenção de causar dano, a intenção de tirar a própria vida. Acho que os policiais estavam fazendo seu trabalho, talvez tentando controlar a situação.

Mas acho que foi uma resposta ao que a vítima fez. Não o torna menos trágico. Mas não acho que seja um assassinato. Mas acho que uma sentença mais justa seria homicídio culposo.

Diana, vou com você em um segundo. Mas, Wanda, preciso pedir um acompanhamento. Você acha que George Floyd foi, de alguma forma, responsável pelo que aconteceu com ele?

sim.

E, Louis, você está concordando, sim. Larry, você está balançando a cabeça, sim. Ao levantar a mão, quantos de vocês pensam que George Floyd foi, de alguma forma, o responsável pelo que aconteceu com ele? Levantem suas mãos. Isso é realmente impressionante. Então Diana e então Nancy e então Josh. Por que George Floyd é o responsável pelo que aconteceu com ele?

Bom, eu acho que em qualquer situação em que haja polícia e civil, por falta de definição melhor, se unindo, principalmente numa situação em que talvez tenha havido um crime aparente, acho que como cidadão na rua, a gente precisa respeitar nossos policiais. Precisamos permitir que façam nosso trabalho. E quando eles nos pedem para fazer algo, temos que fazer, ponto final. Essas pessoas arriscam suas vidas todos os dias para nos ajudar a ficar seguros. E George Floyd claramente não seguiu todas as instruções. Não acho que o oficial pretendia matar George Floyd ou assassiná-lo. Acho que homicídio teria sido uma sentença melhor.

Eu acho que o que o policial fez foi bom? Não, acho que deveria ter deixado George Floyd ir. Acho que foi Louis quem disse isso. Mas também acho que George Floyd foi culpado do que aconteceu porque ele não respondeu como deveria aos oficiais.

Nancy, você acha que George Floyd foi responsável de alguma forma pelo que aconteceu com ele?

Eu concordo com o que Diana acabou de dizer. Nossas agências de aplicação da lei existem por um motivo. E você respeita em qualquer situação que surgir. Ele obviamente estava fazendo algo errado. Obviamente, você tem uma maneira de fazer a coisa errada. Se ao menos ele tivesse ouvido a autoridade e se sentado, e novamente, aquele oficial, o que ele fez foi errado. Nenhum oficial lhe dirá que o que você fez foi errado. Ele não deveria ter se ajoelhado em seu pescoço por tanto tempo. Mas eles provavelmente poderiam tê-lo sentado e esperado que um transporte maior viesse e liberasse as coisas.

Josh, por que George Floyd é pelo menos um pouco responsável pelo que aconteceu com ele? E então Kathryn, eu irei com você em seguida.

Bem, eles não estariam lá se a polícia não tivesse sido chamada em primeiro lugar. O motivo era uma nota de $ 20 falsificada. Então, quero dizer, ele foi a razão pela qual eles apareceram para começar. E então, como outros já disseram, ele não obedeceu, ficou um pouco rebelde. Eu estava drogado. Quero dizer, definitivamente contribuiu para o que aconteceu com ele.

Kathryn, então Jeremiah. Patrick, vou com você para fazer o acompanhamento aqui. Kathryn, você está acordado.

Ok, então, para divulgar tudo, devo dizer que sou casado com um policial, um tenente de 30 anos com o quarto maior departamento do Arizona. E ele disse que estranguladores foram proibidos há muito tempo em seu departamento. Isso nunca teria acontecido. Mas, em qualquer caso, seja uma multa de trânsito, seja o que for, não resista à polícia. Faça o que eles mandam. Apenas cumpra. Não tente correr. Não tente resistir, porque é aí que você terá muitos problemas. E parecia que ele era um cara bem grande. E quatro policiais estão tentando segurá-lo. Novamente, se foi um estrangulamento, não deveria ter acontecido. Mas isso é coisa de Minnesota. Isso não teria acontecido aqui. Mas pará-lo era o que eles deveriam fazer. E ele continuou resistindo. Ele continuou lutando. Ele continuou tentando encontrar todas as desculpas. E ele tinha uma história disso. Eu estava ciente disso. E aqueles oficiais sabiam disso. Então ele está envolvido. Ele é cúmplice.

Jeremiah e depois irei ao Patrick para um acompanhamento.

Obrigado, Frank. Vou mostrar um pouco minhas cartas aqui. Como Kathryn, na verdade sou um policial. Eu tenho que ver isso de uma perspectiva diferente. Jamais verei com as mesmas lentes de muitos de vocês aqui, que podem não estar na mesma situação que eu. Eu veria isso quadro a quadro. Quando Chauvin entrou em cena, isso já estava acontecendo há algum tempo. Acho que foi sua decisão tirá-lo do carro porque ele estava reclamando de claustrofobia. Até aquele momento, o que quer que tenha sido feito, teria feito o mesmo se tivesse sido naquela circunstância semelhante lutando com ele e tentando colocá-lo sob controle. Oficiais de chute: ele era alto o suficiente para colocar os pés do outro lado do veículo também. Para começar, é muito difícil colocar alguém desse tamanho na traseira de um veículo. Em um veículo enjaulado, não há muito espaço para as pernas. E se você for tão grande, é difícil de qualquer maneira. Assim que ele foi baixado ao solo, foi aí que a situação, como poderíamos chamá-la, evoluiu e mudou. Quando ele está no chão, você tem muito mais controle sobre o assunto. Você está algemado nas costas. Quando ele virou de cabeça para baixo, chamamos de posição de asfixia. Essa não é uma posição em que você deseja deixar alguém, a menos que seja uma situação de força mortal. Você simplesmente não deixa alguém nessa posição por muito tempo, e quero dizer segundos. Então isso estava errado. O que acho que aconteceu com Chauvin, na minha opinião, é que ele se vestiu de preto. Acho que ele desmaiou completamente e se perdeu no momento e não se mexeu. O ponto em que o Sr. Floyd havia parado de resistir, mesmo quando estava mais relaxado, deveria tê-los virado de lado, mesmo sentados. Sentado com as pernas cruzadas na frente dele, aquele cara não está se levantando e correndo muito.

Ok, eu não quero pegar, eu deixei isso continuar por muito tempo. Uma pergunta, Jeremiah. Se essa pessoa fosse branca, ela teria sido tratada de forma diferente?

No que me diz respeito, não, acho que não. Para mim e meus colegas policiais, nunca entramos na situação olhando para ela dessa forma. Para nós é muito simples e claro. Ou você está fazendo algo que provoca uma reação nossa ou não. Não é uma questão de raça. Acho que se for exatamente essa mesma situação, e essa situação provavelmente acontece mil vezes por dia nos Estados Unidos com brancos, negros, latinos, não importa: homens, mulheres.

Então me explique por que os negros são vítimas de tiroteios policiais em números desproporcionais. Por que as evidências indicam o contrário? E, Louis, você pode balançar a cabeça o quanto quiser.

Não é verdade.

Por que as evidências indicam o contrário?

Acho que esses fatos são bastante sólidos. E eles se apóiam nos crimes cometidos. Eu sei que o FBI divulga suas estatísticas de vez em quando, todos os anos, seja o que for. Mas se você trabalha em áreas centrais, áreas centrais de alta população, por exemplo, Detroit, há muitos caucasianos morando no centro de Detroit. Quando digo “centro da cidade”, refiro-me ao centro da cidade, exceto ao longo da orla. Então, quando você tiver crimes acontecendo e ocorrendo, o nível de morte que você tem será refletido. Se você vier para uma comunidade rural onde moro, não temos muitas pessoas de cor.

Por que os negros … Jeremiah, por que a polícia está matando os negros?

Quer dizer, é difícil dizer. Não tenho as estatísticas diante de mim.

Apenas dizer.

Tenho certeza que o …

Jeremiah, você não tem uma resposta para isso? Você é policial e não tem uma resposta para explicar por que policiais matam negros?

Eu tenho um.

Nerd. Não acho que seja a maneira correta de fazer a pergunta.

Eu estou levantando isso.

Eu entendo que você está levantando isso. Mas não sei se é o …

Pergunta errada.

É assim que todo mundo quer dizer. Mas é difícil para um policial responder, bem, X pessoas morrem na maioria das vezes. Quer dizer, eu tenho a mesma resistência de brancos e negros. Nunca precisei, graças a Deus, no trabalho usar força letal em ninguém. Portanto, não posso responder a essa pergunta.

Louis, por que tantos negros têm tanto medo da polícia?

Em primeiro lugar, tudo bem, se você olhar os fatos, tem mais brancos mortos por policiais do que negros. Agora, como uma porcentagem, isso pode não ser verdade. Mas os números puros são os brancos recebendo mais fotos do que os negros. E você pode sentar lá e discutir os fatos. Mas esses são os fatos. Procure por eles. O FBI desliga. E de 2015 a 2019, é quase o dobro. Então não vamos colocar o …

Espere, Louis. E que porcentagem da população é branca versus negra? Tu dizes-

Bem, os negros são de 13% a 14% da população. E os brancos são pouco menos de 50%.

Bem, isso não é o dobro. Isso só provou o ponto, Louis.

Não, meu ponto é Frank, meu ponto é que todo mundo quer, você pode fazer os números e as estatísticas parecerem como quiser. O número definitivo é que o número de pessoas baleadas pela polícia é maior para brancos do que para negros. Agora, provavelmente há mais tiroteios no centro como porcentagem de negros porque eles provavelmente têm uma renda mais baixa por causa de … minha sensação é a maneira como eles poderiam ter sido colocados em uma situação. E eles não foram capazes de sair disso. Ok, mas no final do dia, você olha para Chicago. Ninguém se preocupa com assassinatos de negros, certo? É sempre sobre o policial, o policial branco contra o negro. E deixe-me lhe dizer uma coisa. Existem policiais negros que atiram em pessoas negras. Existem policiais brancos que atiram em pessoas brancas. Este não é um problema de raça. Eu cresci em uma família de militares. E eu cresci em uma época em que você respeitava os mais velhos e sua autoridade, certo? E ele disse “sim senhor”, “não senhor”. E quando você não o faz, as consequências podem ser terríveis.

Bem e- [INTERPOSING VOICES] Frank, um ponto sobre o número … oh, desculpe.

Martha, vá em frente.

Agora uma observação sobre os números. É verdade que a população negra é de 13% a 14%. Mas onde a maioria desses tiroteios ocorre é em áreas urbanas, onde a população é de 50% ou mais em muitos casos. Então, como você sabe, você deve observar onde eles estão acontecendo. Mas acho que George Floyd foi uma tragédia para mim. E o pior de tudo, eu acho, foi o fato de que os três minutos ele ficou com o joelho no pescoço depois de não se mover. Para mim, essa foi a parte mais difícil, porque parecia mais pessoal do que, no caso de Chauvin e Floyd, parecia mais pessoal do que trabalho policial.

Por que a população negra tem tanto medo da polícia? Martha-

Eu posso-

Os meios de comunicação.

Posso responder isso, por favor?

Siga em frente.

Tudo bem, porque eu … [DOG BARKING] “Ele era um policial na cidade de Nova York.” E levaríamos agitadores políticos como Al Sharpton aos bairros. [DOG BARKING] Não teríamos problemas. Mas depois que ele sai …

OK, espere um pouco. Se você vai ver um cachorro gritando ao fundo, faça algo a respeito do cachorro. E, Martha, estou voltando para você porque simplesmente não vai ficar bom. Não vai soar bem. Vou voltar. Ann, eu voltarei para você. Mas se o cachorro late tão alto, isso é um problema. Martha, vá em frente.

Não, acho que vai ser um grande desafio em termos de medo que os negros têm. E eu sei que é verdade. Tenho muitos amigos que me disseram muitas vezes que têm medo, principalmente homens negros, que têm medo da polícia. Mas a grande surpresa foi conversar com pessoas que conheço; Eu também não quero ser parado. Também estou com medo quando a polícia me prende. Não quero ser, é diferente, eu sei, porque sou uma mulher branca de meia-idade, ok? Mas acho que ninguém quer ser parado pela polícia ou interagir com ela. Mas eu acredito que é verdade que os negros, especialmente os negros, temem a polícia. E temos que trabalhar nisso.

Evelyn, você é do Texas. Por que a comunidade negra tem tanto medo da polícia?

Acho que mais pelo que a mídia retratou, não porque algo não é verdade, porque é. Mas também é muito distorcido atualmente, como vimos. E também é tendencioso. Também é unilateral. E quando isso é tudo que você vê e ouve, então você pensa assim.

¿Cuántos culpan a los medios de comunicación por el miedo que tiene la comunidad negra hacia la policía? Larry, Louis— 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9— cielos— 10 de ustedes. De acuerdo, Larry, luego Kathryn, luego Nancy, dime por qué. Y luego haré que Patrick lo siga.

Bueno, una de las reglas más antiguas con los medios: si sangra, lidera. Así que tienen todos los incentivos para avivar el fuego para tratar de molestar a los negros tanto como sea humanamente posible, para hacerles creer que un policía les disparará en cuanto los vean sin razón aparente. Y muchos lo creen. Y es por eso que se resisten al arresto. Por eso huyen. Y por eso hay problemas. Si alguien que dirige uno de los medios de comunicación se parara a pensar en lo que está haciendo y el efecto que está teniendo, en lugar de tratar de impulsar su agenda política, mucho de esto no sucedería.

Kathryn.

Lamentablemente, han renunciado a toda su integridad periodística.

Sí, los medios están claramente con los demócratas y sus narrativas. Así que se trata de la narrativa de que esta es una sociedad racista y que los negros están en una situación mucho peor de recibir disparos de la policía. Y creo que hay muchos más problemas con eso. Y simplemente no es cierto. Y, lamentablemente, eso es todo lo que arrojan. Encaja con la narrativa demócrata porque están haciendo todo lo posible para aferrarse al voto negro porque lo están perdiendo lenta pero seguramente. Y esa es la razón número uno en la que puedo pensar.

Nancy y luego Ann.

Es 100% agenda política y mediática. Yo trabajo desde casa. Veo diferentes canales de noticias a lo largo del día para ver qué se cubre. Y solo hay un canal que realmente habla sobre lo que está sucediendo. Es justo y equilibrado. Pero si lo miras, ninguno de ellos cubrirá cuántos policías fueron baleados esta semana. Ninguno de ellos cubrirá eso. Pero cualquiera tiene un problema con cualquier afroamericano, eso lo tiene ahí. Pero intentemos cubrir todos los problemas, no solo señalar ese, porque hay muchos más problemas que se pueden hablar y deben conocerse.

Ann, estás despierta.

Muy bien, muchos de estos vecindarios en los que trabajé, los agitadores políticos hicieron un día de campo viniendo allí para provocar problemas. Obtienen sus 15 minutos de fama. Y terminan recibiendo donaciones de dinero para sus organizaciones. Y se trata de los Benjamins. Se trata de que los medios de comunicación vendan sus noticias y sus periódicos. Y se trata de que los agitadores recauden más dinero en su cuenta bancaria. Y si saca eso de la ecuación, tendríamos muchos menos problemas. No nos ponemos los uniformes todos los días pensando, oye, voy a darle una paliza a un negro o voy a dispararle a un negro. No, eso no es lo que hacemos. Casi me apuñala un chico negro. Y está vivo hoy porque no le disparé. Eso no es lo que hacemos. Salimos a servir. No importa cuál sea su color o su sabor del mes, estamos allí para protegerlo.

Patrick, ¿quieres hacer un par de preguntas aquí?

Estupendo. Gracias, Frank. Gracias a todos. Para empezar, levantando la mano, una pregunta sobre la policía. ¿Cuántos de ustedes antes de la muerte de George Floyd, levanten la mano, cuántos de ustedes creyeron que los oficiales de policía en Estados Unidos hicieron todo lo posible para tratar a todos (blancos, negros, hispanos, asiáticos, todos) iguales, profesionalmente y bastante iguales? OK, parece que todo el mundo. Después de la muerte de George Floyd, me gustaría ver un levantamiento de manos, ¿alguno de ustedes se sintió diferente al respecto, en términos de cómo los oficiales de policía trataban a las personas por raza? ¿Alguien se sentiría diferente si levantaras la mano?

Ninguno de ustedes. De hecho, espera. Kathryn es la única.

Quizás. Kathryn, sí, ¿qué opinas al respecto?

Creo que fue una situación única. Quiero decir, eso es lamentable. Pero, de nuevo, los medios se limitaron a publicar la historia durante semanas, semanas y semanas. Y eso no es representativo del 99,9% de la policía en Estados Unidos. Y eso es injusto difundir esa mentira a todas las comunidades y poner miedo en los negros, poner miedo en los blancos y los hispanos y cosas así. Así que lo considero una situación única. ¿Me sentí diferente después de verlo? No, but I know that that was an improper police procedure. Like I said, that would have never happened in Arizona. But it would have been handled differently.

Diana, do you want to speak to that, too?

Yeah, I think people who become police officers do that because I feel like it’s a calling for them. I mean, personally I could never do the job. And I don’t think that a police officer goes out every day, like one of the other panelists said, to go, I’m going to go kill a Black person today. Or I’m going to go kill a Hispanic person or a white person. I’m just going to go kill a person today. I don’t think that they ever go into their days thinking about that. Maybe more often they might go into their day thinking, oh, am I going to be alive at the end of this day? I mean, I can’t imagine. I had an opportunity to take a class from a police officer. It was actually a basic gun class from a police officer. And the stories that he shared, I mean, it’s stunning what our police officers go through on a daily basis. And I really wish that Americans would respect our police officers. I wish our media would respect our police officers. And I, too, believe it’s the media that really is pushing the hate and the divisiveness that we see in our country today. I don’t think it’s everyday Americans, like all of us here. Realmente no lo hago.

Martha, do you want to speak to it? And then I’ll pass back to Frank.

Yeah, and we talk about the media. And we talk about the mainstream media. But the one thing we haven’t touched on that has caused divisiveness is social media. I mean—

Si.

—prior to social media, you were able to have clearer lines about what’s right and what’s wrong. And now you can find 200 people that will agree with you on anything on social media— any kind of behavior, any kind of way. And I think that it divides us. It puts us in silos. The one big change I’ve made in the last year is I do a lot less social media. I only do what I have to do related to work. And I don’t trust anything that I see on social media unless I’ve checked it out.

I think people find it much easier to be mean, so to speak, on social media. I mean, I think people feel freer to say what they want to say on social media. And they don’t care who it hurts.

Así es.

OK, I’ll take it back. You’ve all heard the phrase “white privilege.”

Puaj.

OK, clearly I see that reaction. Avanzar. White privilege— comments.

Si. I was raised in a blue collar family, military family. My father was a sergeant in the Marines. No one ever gave— my mom worked three jobs. My dad worked. He was a union carpenter. No one ever gave us anything. We worked hard. ¿Y sabes qué? My parents instilled, you work hard, and you will get somewhere. No one’s ever just handed it to me. In fact, I think nowadays— and I went through it in corporate America— I think nowadays white older men are the most discriminated people in this country. And the media plays it up that it’s white privilege. And I’m so sick and tired of hearing about white privilege. No, I didn’t create slavery. I didn’t create— you know, when we grew up, I grew up through the era of Martin Luther King—

Si.

—and segregation. Now the media and the Democrats want segregation again. What good is that going to do? No, there’s no— white privilege, to me, is a bunch of bull.

James, white privilege?

No white privilege. I came up the same way he did. I came up in the ‘60s, through Martin Luther King. I’ve seen racism. I’ve seen the white side and the Black side, [INAUDIBLE]. And I’ve seen minorities being discriminated against. But we worked our way. My father was in Air Force. And he retired. We moved to a farm. We worked the farm. I had opportunities that I blew, not because I was white, because I was dumb sometimes. But I believe, in this country, if you are Black, white, Latino, Asian, if you really want to work and earn and be something, be somebody, you have every opportunity as anybody else to achieve anything you want to be and just— you could be a doctor, scientist, astronaut, a president of the United States in this nation. And white privilege is a myth.

Evelyn, white privilege, your reaction.

Absolutamente no. We worked hard. I remember growing up on a farm. And we had three huge gardens that we worked. And it was just all about work, work, work, work to even have enough to eat and have enough milk to drink. We had to take care of the cows and all that. And none of that has changed. I’m not on a farm anymore. But it’s still about making my own way and not depending on the government— God help us— or anyone else to make that way for me. It’s up to me to do what I want to do in life.

Larry— [INTERPOSING VOICES] —reaction to white privilege?

It’s total nonsense. I mean, I was born and brought up in a broken home. My father was an alcoholic and a compulsive gambler. So we were always broke. We had utilities turned off. I paid for my student loans years after I graduated. For someone to tell me that I am privileged, that is damn offensive.

Ann, you feel that way?

Absolutamente. I grew up under busing. And I had to make sure my younger brother and sister got to their bus stop. So I ended up walking two miles to school. So don’t tell me about busing. I lost many jobs because of affirmative action. I got passed over for a promotion because of affirmative action. I was told to my face, no, you have to be either Black or Hispanic, to my face. So don’t tell me about white privilege when I had to work three jobs to put myself through college because I was not the right color to get a grant or a scholarship. No, I worked hard. I climbed the corporate ladder. I walked away from corporate America to become a cop because I felt I needed to serve in any community. And I got put in the worst community possible. And I did my job no matter who was there in front of me. And I treated everyone equally. So don’t tell me about white privilege. I’m responsible for what I do today, not what someone did before me. I take responsibility for myself, not anyone else.

Bingo.

Alex, I know you’ve wanted to get in. And then, Josh, I’m going to you. And, Patrick, I’m going to throw it back to you in one second. Alex, go ahead.

So no offense to everyone, but I think I’m a unique case where I’m probably the youngest person in here. I’m in college. And I’ve seen firsthand throughout my experience— my firsthand experiences throughout my life where I’ve been, like Ann was saying, where I’ve had scholarship opportunities turned down, where I have to work full time, 60 hours a week, just to pay my student bills because I can’t get any financial aid because my parents are married and I can’t get any financial aid because I’m a white man. And so I’m seeing all this stuff where I’ve had classmates who are of a different skin color with lower grades than me, the same extracurriculars, and lower test scores get into a college that I didn’t in high school. And I mean, it was an African-American male. And I’m a white male. And he got in. I didn’t. I had better test scores and grades. And so that was really eye-opening to me, where I had opportunities taken from me because of the color of my skin. And then I hear people tell me on a daily basis that I’m privileged and that I need to pay reparations and things like that.

Josh, I’m going to make a— this is a very wrong thing for me to do. But I’m going to suggest by looking at you that you’re not Caucasian.

No. [LAUGHS] So first off, Alex, I apologize. I was probably one of those minorities that took one your spots at one point.

No, you’re Asian. I think you’re good. [LAUGHTER]

But no, I don’t think white privilege exists. For me, and this is when people try to tell me about it— and I don’t know everyone’s background here and income levels. But in general, for me and my family, I’m better off than 70% of white people that I know. So if white privilege existed, I wouldn’t be able to do what I do and have the things that I have. And kind of going back to what some people have said about— I think it was Ann— about getting passed over by jobs, so I work in IT project management and managed services. And I had a client recently, it was, like, last week, that said that they specifically wanted minorities and/or minority women over white candidates. And like, uh, we can’t really do that, man. But we’ll try. So there definitely is a bias against white people. And actually, I know some people said they don’t like social media. I happen to enjoy TikTok a lot. Someone on TikTok told me I was Asian by ethnicity but a white apologist because I didn’t agree that there was white privilege on some stupid TikTok dance. So there is definitely a bias out there against white people more so than actual white privilege at this point.

Patrick, I’m going to throw it to you because the other issue— George Floyd. And I’m going to do a commentary because I know some of you are aware of the focus groups that I do. And I don’t mind sharing this with you. This is a very different session of what I normally do. Patrick, you saw how they struggled with George Floyd. There is no struggling on this issue. There is resentment. And the work that I’m trying to achieve, this blending of the American experience, trying to find common ground, phrases like this immediately divide. So I don’t know what you’re going to ask. But this was very enlightening to me just how immediate the response was, how angry people are, how they personalize it for themselves. And this is just something for you to consider. But what’s your question?

Thanks, Frank. And I’ve been struck by all of this, as well. I did note the fact that a number of people thought that, when they thought about George Floyd, they thought about “tragic,” and to a person thought that showed them did something wrong. And candidly, I think there are probably a lot of liberals out there who would think that this group would not think those things, that the people would be at the barricades defending cops and criticizing Floyd. So I found this really interesting. Frank, I think I want to borrow from you, where you were at the beginning, which was to— I’d like to say a phrase. I’m going to say a phrase, and I’d like to get one word or a brief reaction for your feelings about that phrase. And the phrase is Black Lives Matter. So I’d like to go around and just get a brief reaction, your thoughts when you hear that phrase. My screen may be different than Frank’s. But maybe, Ann, could you go first?

If Black lives matter so much, why aren’t they out there protesting in front of Planned Parenthood, where the vast majority of abortions are Black children, when it was formed by a person that wanted a genocide— Margaret Sanger? Tell me. No, all lives matter, that all lives in the eyes of God are equal. And that is how I feel as a Christian.

OK, possible short answer. Maybe, Martha, do you want to go next?

I think it started out as an organic movement. But it’s now become a corporation, where there are people benefiting from moneys and other things like that. So it’s hard to trust what that really means.

OK, Louis.

Yeah, I think they’re a part of Antifa at this stage, backed by Soros. And I believe that all lives matter. When you get mad at that, something’s wrong, because all lives matter. We’re from the same creator. We all bleed red. And we’re all God’s children. But when they do things that shouldn’t be done, then, sorry, not going to get my pity.

está bien. If you can keep it tight, that’d be great because I know we don’t have a ton of time. Thanks, Louis. Jeremiah?

Misguided.

Gracias. Nancy?

Political.

OK, Josh?

The idea is fine. The group itself— a bunch of losers.

Kathryn?

Fraud organization.

Say that first word again?

Fraud organization.

está bien. Wanda?

ISIS statement.

Taylor?

Corrupt, and going the wrong direction for the Black community.

OK, Larry?

An organization where the founders are making a ton of money by encouraging violence.

Alex?

A tool.

Diana?

Hate-filled.

James?

Marxist hate group.

And Evelyn?

Well, he took mine. I was going to say Marxist. So I’ll say communist. [LAUGHTER]

Lo siento.

I’m curious, going back to last May, a year ago right around now, in terms of your views about the Black Lives Matter movement after George Floyd’s death and the protests that started in May. In that moment, were any of you any more or less put off by Black Lives Matter than you were before Floyd’s death? And I ask because there has been polling, public opinion polling, that shows shifts in how people saw Black Lives Matter around that time among people who identified as Republicans. I would just love to hear from a few of you on that. Taylor, do you want to go first?

I would say before George Floyd, I was always kind of not a huge fan of the phrase of the group. And then I feel like— I’m a teacher in Columbus.

My school’s, like, 99% African-Americans. So there was almost, like, a pressure on me that after that if I didn’t show some kind of sympathy towards it, it was almost kind of, like, I was viewed as lesser than. So I would have to have these conversations with my students. And I was so conflicted because I’m just like, OK, we’re focusing in on this. But we don’t even know all the details. But I’m having to have these conversations with my students that are 100% gung ho. And I’m like, I’m so torn. I feel like, to answer your specific question, over the course of this past year, I have grown more and more skeptical and have been very, not paranoid, but just very— skeptical is the best word of just what they really, truly stand for, how they use their funds for corrupt leaders. Their mission is not condemning violence in some areas. But then they’ll condemn it in others. It’s like, you can’t have it both ways. So I feel like, at first, I was kind of skeptical to begin with. And then now I’m to the point where the mention of Black Lives Matter when I read projects from my students— all the time they focus on things to do with race— I’m just like, I’m done. I’m very much over it. It’s very divisive. And it’s very frustrating that they are not being educated because their parents are kind of speaking into them. And this is our next generation. I teach middle school. So in their very formative years, they’re being told this by their parents and their communities. And I’m just like, I can’t say anything because then I’ll be looked at as the bad guy. So for me, I’m in a really weird, awkward situation when it comes to this, especially in my professional life.

Taylor, maybe before we go to Louis, can I just ask, as you were listening and talking to your students about it, did anything that they say hit you in a way that made you, not— it doesn’t sound like you were skeptical of Black Lives Matter. So I’m not saying it changed your mind. But just listening to your students’ experiences, your Black students’ experiences, did that influence your thinking about the group or the idea at all?

I mean, I think, as a teacher, you have to keep an open mind to an extent. You have to be able to at least listen. So I’ve definitely listened to my students because I’m not Black. And I don’t know what they’re going through. And I will never be able to be fully in their shoes. So when I was having these conversations with them, it was— I feel multiple people have said it throughout the night about multiple issues— I feel like they’re being so fed this narrative from the media or social media or from their parents or from the Black community or from x, y, and z, that if I were to ever— that when I did present, ‘well, have you thought about it from this perspective,’ that’s so foreign to them because they’re not being exposed to the other side. And so when I’m there with them, I try to have these very intellectual, hospitable conversations. But for them, it just does not click. So for them, they see me— they don’t see me as, like, a sympathizer with white people or with cops. They see me as, well, we’re going to talk about it with you. But you’ll never fully understand. And yeah.

No, that’s very helpful. Louis?

Yeah, I think— well, first off, to Taylor’s point, I don’t think anyone knows how anyone else feels because they can’t walk in their shoes. So Black people can’t walk in my shoes. And I can’t walk in their shoes, OK? We can only imagine what’s gone on. When my grandparents came over, they were discriminated against. They were Italian, OK? And my point about Black Lives Matter is, eh, it was a movement. And I’m OK with peaceful protests because that’s our First Amendment, right? But what happened is it turned into, OK, let’s burn. Let’s loot. And they’re hurting the Black community. They’re going into Black communities, taking over their businesses, burning them down, looting them. And now these business owners that are Black have nowhere to go. So if Black lives really mattered, they would sit back and, hey, let’s have a million protesters peacefully march that Black Lives Matter. But also, when we say all lives matter, let’s not make it just Black lives. We’re all together. So all lives should matter. It doesn’t really matter what color. Again, I keep coming back, we’re all from the same creator. Call him what you want. But at the end of the day, I grew so totally against Black Lives Matter. And I lump them into Antifa at this stage because I am so tired of robbing and looting and burning cities down. And the media is to blame— is partly to blame for allowing it without calling it out, and so are the Democrats. They just hide it all. And it’s like, no, just tell the truth. Tell the truth. That’s all I care about.

Louis, to that— oh, Alex, why don’t you go. And then I’ll throw in a question.

Well, so the question that you guys posed was, like, did our opinions really change? But I remember back in 2015 when Freddie Gray died, and I remember— I was in the DC area at the time. And I remember seeing high school kids my age go up to riot in Baltimore and get in fights on the street. And so to think that the events of George Floyd really changed the image of BLM, I guess it became more popular. But that was always their shtick. Like, they were never non-violent. Any time a BLM protest showed up, it was always a riot.

I want to ask about that question to all of you. It is a fact that the Black Lives Matter protests last summer in American cities were overwhelmingly peaceful. Do you disagree? That is a fact. In terms of the 26 million—

Look.

—the 26 million people who marched through the summer, there were not 26 million rioters. So do you disagree with that fact? And what evidence is there in terms of numbers and numeric damage can you cite to disagree with that fact?

Evelyn, go ahead.

Evelyn.

Evelyn, go ahead.

I just want to say, is this a joke? I mean, are you serious? ¿En serio? They were peaceful protests? You’ve got to be kidding.

Bingo.

Evelyn, tell me what evidence is there that they were not overwhelmingly peaceful?

Oh, murder, looting, burning buildings down. You know, just that type of stuff. Eso es.

This subject gives me such anxiety just thinking about it because you watched on the news, things were burning, things were looting. People were stealing. I live in New Jersey. I live in a beach town. Last June, over Juneteenth weekend we had every police department in our town because a group of people came into our town, which is a very, very nice town— beach, boardwalk, everything— they were peeing on people’s lawns. They were pooping on people’s lawns. They were publicly drinking. And it lasted for about 24 hours in my quiet, little beach town. And it didn’t need to happen. It could have been peaceful, but it wasn’t.

So what evidence—

I’d like to weigh in. I feel like, to answer your specific question, Patrick, I think overwhelmingly when you look at 26 million people, yes, probably statistically they were a majority peaceful. But what we saw and what the majority of people were led to believe was that it wasn’t. I know my family owns restaurants in downtown Cincinnati. And the fact that even if they were peaceful, the fact that they had to close down every other day for weeks on end, not because of COVID but because of fears of getting their windows knocked in or because of something Over-The-Rhine because there was such violent crime in the area, having to be so incredibly paranoid about the structural integrity of this 175-year-old building, that if something were to break, nothing could be fixed. So I feel like when you see it, it makes you think, like, oh, that’s all there is. I’m sure statistically yes, the overwhelming majority probably was peaceful because there wasn’t everywhere. But I think, to a lot of our points, what we’ve seen for the last year or two, three, five, six years is that the media has very clearly shown that there’s large groups of people that think this. And if they don’t participate, they at least sympathize with the people that are doing the damage and the looting and the murdering and the defecating on lawns. I feel like even when you sympathize with that, I feel like that is still a problem.

Kathryn, from Arizona— Kathryn and then Martha.

Yeah, I didn’t see anything peaceful about the protests. I mean, obviously I wasn’t part of the 26 million group or whatever across the country. But there was nothing peaceful at all about those protests. I mean, violence was insurrected everywhere. They made such a big deal about the politicians dead, about January 6. No, what happened all summer, all last year, that should have been called out. If there’s going to be a commission to investigate anything, it should have been all of that.

Martha, then Jeremiah. Then I’ll give it back to Patrick.

I think it’s true that what we saw over and over again was that in the early-day part, the protests were peaceful. It looked like regular folks. It looked like people that were coming together because they were concerned about what happened. As the day wore on, you would start to see people come in, almost like— I mean, it’s the middle of the summer in Atlanta, Georgia. It’s 95 degrees. And people are coming in all dressed in Black with almost, like, riot gear on. And these weren’t the police. And the crowds would change as the day went on. So the violence happened as the day went on. Now, you can say they were infiltrators, Antifa, whatever you want to call it. But there was a major change in who was at these rallies from the early part of the day as it became nighttime.

Jeremiah.

Yeah, I agree with Martha on that. And I think this is where Patrick— and this is not a knock on you at all. But this is where the media is able to have that platform to glorify— I think somebody said it earlier, if it bleeds, it leads. Estoy de acuerdo con eso. In the city of Detroit, we didn’t have those problems. So if you were to just take a Detroit resident, and Chief Craig would tell you the same thing, we didn’t have any of those problems all summer. There were not storefronts being boarded up. There were not trash cans burning in the streets, although those people were protesting. And if you were to get inside of these groups and talk to them, they didn’t have radical, off-the-wall commentary. Their concerns were genuine. And you empathize with them. And somebody else said, you can’t walk in their shoes. I’m not Black obviously. But what Martha said, I think, is pretty accurate. Depending on where you lived, at night with these infiltrations, Antifa, the radical groups would come in. They get the story. They become the story. For people like us that look at it, and we don’t agree maybe with the messaging, we then somehow see it as, this is what those movements were versus how the media portrayed it as 26 million people, it was overwhelmingly peaceful. Yeah, well, I mean, you could say that with any statistic. And if you want that to be your number and be the lead, that will be your lead.

So we’re now seeing a real violent crime spike in a lot of cities, a rise in murders. I mean, it’s happening now and in recent months, I think, more than a mass crime spike and wave and arrests last summer during the protests. How afraid are you about violent crime today? How much does that concern you?

Anyone want to go first on that? Louis.

Yeah—

I—

—here in—

Then Martha.

—Arizona, I keep saying we’re the Wild West. But I do remember when Fashion Square was taken over by the looters and everything else. And then we got word that Antifa and Black Lives Matter were going to march on Scottsdale Quarter and Kierland. And I got to tell you, you know what? A lot of people, citizens, went there with their arms to protect it, OK? And it’s a shame they never came because, you know what? I think they realized that Arizona is a little different, just like, maybe, Texas or something else. So I believe totally that if they’re going to try and do something, it’s going to be in the urban areas. And when you say “defund the police,” like you do in other areas— Minneapolis and all these other things, New York— that’s where the crime is rising. Look at the blue states versus the red states. It’s mind boggling that people can’t see that it’s all about the blue states and the red states and how they deal with crime and how they deal with police.

Martha, do you want to go next? And then Alex.

Yeah, so I live in a fairly rural area. So I’m not as worried about crime. But my daughter lives near downtown Atlanta. And she and her husband have what they call a bug-out bag so that if things get too hot or if they get too bad, they’ll throw the bag in their car. And they’ll come up and stay with us. And that’s terrifying for me as a parent. There were 14 shootings over this weekend in Atlanta. I mean, I’m a native Atlantan, which is very unusual, OK? And we’re the city too busy to hate, until this summer. And you know, people are terrified, if they go into Atlanta, to leave their car or any of that kind of stuff. But that’s going to change.

But I will tell you, as a parent who’s got kids that live in urban areas that are afraid, it’s pretty scary.

Alex.

So this doesn’t relate to this question. It’s to the previous, so just bear with me. So you wanted numbers. And so I referenced the study that you looked up from the— let’s see. It’s the ACLED, where they said 93% were peaceful. Is that correct? I don’t want to misinterpret what you were saying.

It was—

Hold on, hold on. We’re not going to do this. No, this is moderator prerogative. This is not a debate. I’m trying to understand opinion. I’m not trying to have an argument here. So—

No, it’s not an argument. I just want to— I don’t want to—

Alex, you got 10 seconds to make your point. Avanzar.

Está bien.

Ir.

Over 20 deaths, $2 billion in damages, since, the study said, about 7,000 events. That means that there were almost 550 riots. And the fact that there were 550 riots should be a headline in and of itself. Ahí tienes.

está bien. Actually you did very well on that. [LAUGHTER]

Frank, do you want to jump back?

Yes, because I got a question that normally I would ask at the end. But I’m starting to cough. So I don’t know whether I’ll make it or not. This is for all of you. And this is two or three sentences each. Are you afraid in America to voice your point of view about issues of race? I watch you carefully. I see you, because you’re all in front of me on a screen. And I notice those times when you respond immediately and those times when you’re slow about it. Are you afraid to tell me your real thoughts about race in this country?

No.

No.

No.

No. [INTERPOSING VOICES]

I’m surprised. Ann, tell me why not.

I have been— [INTERPOSING VOICES]

—talk about it.

I have been very vocal in my opinion about the breakdown of race relations inside the United States, especially with critical race theory being taught in our schools. And I have been an activist dealing with our school board, with our elected officials. And I am not afraid to speak my mind.

You know—

Larry.

—I think one of the things that people get wrong about the South all the time is that we actually— most Southerners have actually interacted and lived together more, especially since the civil rights movement, than any other place in the country. The most segregated city I’ve ever been to in my life is Boston, OK? And I went through— I remember colored water fountains. I remember desegregation and busing. So I don’t have any trouble talking about how I feel about race. I’m more concerned about making sure I don’t misspeak and not just here but anywhere because of the cancel culture and if you say one wrong word, people try to tell you what you really meant. And I know what I mean when I say what I say. So I’m not afraid to speak my mind about race. I’ve been doing it all my life. But I do think that we’re in a place right now where people are being measured in a way they haven’t been in a long time.

Wanda, are you nervous about speaking about race?

I guess I’m in the minority here. Yes, I am. I feel like if you have an unpopular opinion on Black Lives Matter or whatever, that you’re discriminated against, no matter what color you are. And I found that a lot of my liberal friends, they’re ready to pounce on anything you say that they can turn around, whether it’s about Black Lives Matter or LGBT. You know, it doesn’t matter. So yes, I’m very careful what I say and who I say it to. And it shouldn’t be that way. But that’s the feeling I get.

Josh, you’re one of the younger— Josh, how old are you?

38. I’m Asian, man. We all look young. We look young until we’re, like— [LAUGHTER]

By the way, just for the record, Josh, I’m going to put you in every single focus group because you’re the comic relief. [LAUGHTER] Are you ever afraid to talk about issues of race?

No, because I’m not white. So I’ll say whatever. I’m also not trying to get into Harvard, so they won’t hold it against me that I’m Asian. No, I’m never going to be, like, a dick about it. But I’ll always speak what I think.

What about the crimes against the Asian community?

Well, I think that, again, it’s probably a pretty small part of the population that is actually committing these crimes. And I think one of the things that’s overlooked and that the media doesn’t really cover a whole lot is that most of them are Black people that are doing it. And they’re all in pretty liberal cities, which, again, just part of it just being larger urban areas, just more people. But a lot of it’s in San Francisco, New York. And so it’s elderly Asian folks. And that’s definitely not right.

But you’re blaming the Black community, not the White community.

Correct.

That’s a big deal. You sure you want to say that? [LAUGHTER]

Si.

Ahí tienes.

Good job. Frank, can I just interject?

Like you aren’t?

Si. One thing I would say is— and I keep saying this to people— my parents were probably more racist. They were— and I’m 60, all right? My generation then saw a lot of change. And yes, there was probably— there is racism in my generation. My kids’ generation don’t see color. They don’t see gender. They really don’t. And my grandkids— I have one grandson. And I will tell you this, Frank. I highly doubt that they will ever see any type of— or very, very small; obviously you can’t say none— racism, sexism, or whatever because I just think that we all learn from each generation. And we get better at it. And that includes Blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians, whatever. It includes us all.

Well, look. I think it’s fair to say that most white people think we’ve gone farther than we actually have. And most Black people think we haven’t gone as far as we actually have. And somewhere in the middle is the truth. And my kids always say to me, are you going to strike up a conversation with strangers when we go out today? And I always say yes, because that’s what I do. I go out, and I meet people wherever. I strike up conversations with people in lines, wherever. But when you do that, you really expand your circle of people that you talk to. And it’s not just the same five people that live around you.

Can I just jump in to ask the whole group about Martha’s point there? How many of you agree with Martha’s statement— could see a show of hands— that most white people think that white people have come farther than they have, and most Black people think that we haven’t gotten far enough— come far enough? So 1, 2, 3—

Almost everybody.

Yeah, almost everybody. Kathryn, can you say why do you think that is, and then maybe, Larry, why you don’t?

I mean, I have Black friends. And I have friends of all color, creed, and race and everything. So my Black friends would probably disagree with that, the latter part of that statement. But I think she does make an excellent point, in that white people are like, we’re not racist. We have friends of every race, color, and creed. We treat everybody kindly and the same. No nos importa. So what’s the big deal? Whereas Black people or Hispanics or Asian or whomever, if they’re in a situation where they’re discriminated against and it’s something we just aren’t aware of, being white, I guess— I can’t help that I’m white by the way. No soy [LAUGHS] going to apologize for it. So I would say white people are thinking we’re doing pretty good because we get along with everybody. But maybe Black people are still having some issues.

And, Kathryn, just so I understand, you think that’s really not— they may think that way, but that’s actually the reality.

Derecha.

Si.

I mean, I don’t know. But I know my Black friends don’t feel that way. But I can’t— obviously they don’t know the whole Black community. None of us do.

Seguro. Larry, how do you see that?

This is the Great Society. We’ve been giving out subsidies, different government programs, all these giveaways, so many of them targeted specifically to the Black community right up to today, where we’ve got affirmative action. We’re bending over backwards to try and make things as equal as possible. And they just try to keep on coming up with excuses as to why they’re being held back, with many of them being fictitious.

está bien. Frank, do you want to— or I can keep going.

Keep going. I’ll jump in there in two minutes.

está bien. Just a show of hands, I would like to know just how many of you believe that discrimination against minority groups is a serious problem in society today.

Anybody? OK, no one believes that. And there’s a great deal of talk now about racial diversity in the workplace. And certainly affirmative action programs have been around for decades. But a lot of companies and workplaces are putting more emphasis on racial diversity. And that’s been one of the outgrowths of some of the protest movements from last summer. Do you generally see racial diversity in the workplace as— I was going to ask— as a good thing, a bad thing, or it doesn’t matter?

Bad.

I’d just love to hear a few voices on that.

I think it should be the—

Bad.

I think it should be the qualified person. Lo siento.

Patrick? Patrick, you want to do it this way. Hold on, because—

Sorry, I asked the question. [LAUGHS] [INTERPOSING VOICES] Frank’s the expert.

Esperar. But this what I want to do. And, Louis, you get credit for this. I want you all to stick your fist out towards the camera. Stick your fist out towards the camera. Put your thumb horizontal. Start horizontal. Make sure I can see your thumb. Kathryn, I can’t see your thumb. Look at your screen. Everyone, look at your screen. Now vote. Diversity programs at work— up or down. Votar.

Diversity programs at work. [INTERPOSING VOICES]

Almost all of you are negative. Diana and then Evelyn and then Wanda, why so negative about diversity programs at work? Why not open it up and promote it for everybody?

I think when you start talking “diversity,” you’re talking about racism. And we keep saying we have systemic racism. OK, so I agree we have systemic racism in this country. And the reason we have systemic racism in this country is because we’re seeing it again. We’re seeing color. We’re concentrating so much on color that we don’t see anything else. We don’t see what people have to offer regardless of their color. We see color first. And we don’t say, oh, well, you’re an excellent candidate for this job because you could have a master’s degree in telecommunications or whatever, where you might say, OK, we have to put a person of color into a position when maybe they’re really not the most qualified.

Evelyn and then Wanda.

Having worked for the post office, I saw so much of that, where if you were a Black woman in particular, you were promoted so quickly as opposed to me, just being a woman and being the wrong color. And I saw so much where it wasn’t about qualifications. Diversity to me is racism, because it’s making you aware that there is a difference. And that’s the problem.

Wanda and then Nancy.

I think hiring, promotions, should be based on merit, not the color of your skin. And it goes both ways. A white person shouldn’t get a job because they’re white. They should get it because they’re the best person for the job. Same with Blacks. Same with Asians. It should always be based on merit.

A qualified person, if they’re not getting a job because of the color of their skin, is wrong regardless of whether that person is Black or white. It’s wrong.

Gang, can I ask you, though, just historically, do you believe that that’s been true, though, what Wanda was saying and Larry, that historically Black people, Hispanic people, white people all got the job because they were the best, the most qualified for the job?

No.

Idiocracy versus meritocracy.

Definitivamente no.

Now, I mean, I guess what I’m asking— and it’s sort of a loaded question, I realize. But the degree to which, for a lot of the 20th century, white people got jobs, and, well, it’s true, for most of the 20th century, white people got jobs. And that’s partly why affirmative action happened.

You ever hear the old saying ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’?

How about age? How about age? Why don’t you factor that in?

Si.

Si.

Martha, do you want to—

I mean—

Age discrimination is just as bad as race discrimination. So I went through age discrimination. I’m sorry, but I did not get a job because I was white. I got a job because I was most qualified. I got health issues because I was older, and they wanted to get rid of me for a younger guy. I’m sorry— not buying it.

Yeah, no, I kind of was talking about the long arc of history. But, Martha, go ahead. And then, Frank, I have one last big question if we have time for it.

Well, I mean, I think in the long arc of history, yes, there was obviously discrimination. It wasn’t until 1968 that in Georgia state employment was desegregated. I mean, so there’s a lot of things that happened there. The first job I ever got I got because they were looking for a woman, OK? And I knew I was hired just because I was a woman. But I knew I wasn’t going to keep the job just because I was a woman. I had to be better than the men. This was in the workforce in the early ‘80s. I had to be better than the men to keep the job. And I’ve been successful at it. But I think, a number of years ago I was on the board at the University of Georgia. And the decision came down where you couldn’t take into consideration race. And you couldn’t take into consideration other factors in admissions. And we had to do a wider net at the University of Georgia to be able to get more diverse students. And I think there is a value in diversity in your institutions. I think that that’s true. But you have to be careful that you don’t go as far as— and I’ve forgotten his name, the student in Florida— you don’t go as far as where you say you can’t get help just because you’re a white man. So we’ve got to find that balance between fairness and giving opportunity and reaching beyond your own group to be able to look for people in jobs. I mean, that’s what The New York Times does. That’s what big companies do. But over the summer, recently with big corporations complaining about things, when you look at their actual corporate boards, when you look— they talk a lot about diversity. But they haven’t delivered on diversity. But yet they want to judge and criticize other people about diversity. I think most people honestly are just trying to get through life day to day and that if you will just— most people are nice to each other and that if you just go and look and are honest with people, that you’re going to get treated right because the law is fair. The law is fair. People may not be. The implementation may be wrong sometimes. But the law is fair. And we just have to make sure the law gets implemented.

It’s not fair for politicians. They get away with murder, literally.

So just a—

Patrick— [INTERPOSING VOICES]

Yeah, OK. It’s an open-ended question. We don’t have time for everybody to answer, certainly. But if people have thoughts.

George Floyd died about a year ago. Did his death and what followed, the protests, the trial, the discussions about race and racism, did that change anything about America for you or how you saw life in America, people in America, or what’s to come in the near future? Just, it’s an open-ended question. But, Alex, do want to— Alex and then Nancy, I think, or Ann. Alex and then Ann.

Yeah, I don’t think it changed how I saw anything. But it’s certainly changed who got elected and who’s sitting in the office right now.

Si.

That’s for sure.

How so, Alex? And then Ann.

Well, I mean, you’ve seen many articles since the election about how the Black turnout, clearly mobilized by all these months and months of protesting and civil engagement— I think that that definitely mobilized the African-American demographic and got them to turn out to vote, even if it was for Joe Biden.

Entiendo. Ann and then Diana.

It saddened me because growing up through the civil rights, we, as a nation, have come so far. Never in history have we had so many interracial marriages and children. We have gone from slavery— and our founding fathers put the building blocks in place with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, knowing we had to come down this path. We walked it. We put the laws in place to give an equal chance to everyone to attempt to succeed. And what we have with something like George Floyd and these protests, we have a segment, a very small segment, like 1%, trying to tear our republic down by creating victims and dividing us. And this is what we have to fight. We have to reunite the nation.

Gracias. Diana.

I grew up outside of Washington DC. And I lived there during the Martin Luther King riots. So I felt like I was growing up really in the heart of racism in that time. And what I have seen now and what I see in this country— the hate, the divisiveness, the anger between races— I think it is far worse now than it was then. And I remember the fear that I lived with during those riots in DC. And I have felt that fear again, even as an adult. I won’t go downtown Denver at night. I would never go down there by myself. I think that what’s happening in this country, I think we’re going backwards. I don’t see us going forward. And it breaks my heart. I grew up in an Air Force family. So you know, I am a proud, flag-waving American. And I’m happy to admit that out loud. I love this country. And I really hate to see the direction we’re going. We’re not moving forward.

Evelyn, do you want to— oh, sorry. Go ahead, Louis.

I lived in Buffalo. I still remember the day Martin Luther King was shot. And my parents called us in. We were across the street at the playground of our school. And I believe that at this stage, the goal of the politicians and the media is to divide us. I think by divided— united we stand, divided we fall. And I truly believe that they want us divided. And it’s disgusting, as opposed to, I think the media could help bring us together. Instead, they’re bringing us further apart, or they’re splitting us and dividing us. And so are the politicians. I don’t care whether you’re GOP or a Democrat, OK? There’s a lot of that. So my concern as an American, I am a patriot. I do believe in God. I do believe in our flag. I do believe in our Constitution and our amendments and the Bill of Rights. And I will fight for whatever I can. But I will fight side by side with anybody that believes in that, whether they’re Black, white, green, yellow, orange. No me importa. It doesn’t matter as long as they are on our side and together we stand. OK, that’s all we need. We all bleed red.

Thanks, Louis. [INTERPOSING VOICES] Yeah, Martha, go ahead.

Just a quick statement. I mean, I’m an optimist. So I think we’re resilient as a country. And I’m glad they made the reference to the ‘60s and early ‘70s because you think about— New York was a pit back then. It was violent. We had three major figures in our country assassinated within a five-year period. But we didn’t have social media. So it didn’t feel like it was happening all the time the way it is now. So I’m optimistic. We’re resilient. We’re going to get back together again. We’re going to have a new leader come out of all this. I don’t know who it’s going to be yet. But I’m optimistic about the future.

Can I just say— make a quick point?

Yes, Wanda.

First of all, I don’t believe President Obama would have been elected twice if we were a racist nation. And my second point is, people who constantly talk about racism perpetuate racism.

Si.

Martin Luther King Jr. advocated peaceful change. Over the course of this past year, nearly every congressional Democrat was advocating violence. Huge difference between the two periods.

I don’t think that’s true, Larry. But we’ll agree to disagree. Evelyn?

Would you like me to send you some clips? [LAUGHTER]

Evelyn?

My first marriage was— I was married to a Black man. So my daughter is mixed. And we discuss these things quite often because she’s kind of torn between being white— and I shouldn’t say ‘torn between.’ But I know it’s probably put her in a difficult position to be raised by me, but yet she’s got darker skin. And of course we’ve been questioned, is she adopted? No, she’s mine, you know? But these topics have come up. And believe me, I lived with some things when we were married. Oh, my goodness, it was horrendous. And it wasn’t from white people. It was a scary time then. And that’s what I see happening again with what’s happening in our nation now. I see the regression that reminds me of those days. And I had quit feeling that entirely. I mean, it wasn’t near my mind anymore. And then with discussions that I have with her, we’ve both made the comment about going to the grocery store. And if I look at a Black person the wrong way— and it’s not intentional— but how am I supposed to look at a Black person? And she said, Mom, I feel the same way. She said, I’m scared I’m going to look at somebody wrong and not mean anything. I’m just thinking about something else or whatever. And I thought, that is so sad, because she’s lived her whole life— she’ll be 40 this year— lived her whole life without that mess. And now here it is. And it’s just sad. It’s very sad.

That’s terrible.

My husband and I, we sit and we talk. And I’m 38. I’ve been married five years. And we have the subject of children. Do we want to bring a child into this world right now? Because it’s so crazy out there, what the future has to hold for them. And that’s scary to sit down and talk about because you don’t know what this future holds right now. So there has to be something out there that brings us together because we are so divided right now. And I’m terrified of bringing a child into this world right now.

Patrick, can I add just a 10-second piece here?

Sure thing, Jeremiah.

I think it’s generational. It absolutely is generational. As we’ve been sitting here talking about this, I went back. I’m an ‘80s kid. I spent two decades in the Marine Corps. So I was amongst a lot of diverse groups, and even now with my coworkers in law enforcement. I remember Rodney King, Malice Green. I remember those times. Of course there wasn’t social media back then. But you got your news at 6:00 AM, 6:00 PM, midnight, whatever. I think, what Martha’s saying, I can’t agree with any more— to be more of an optimist and take it that way. I have two young kids— 10 and 7. And we’re constantly talking about these things. You know, I follow the same path I was taught, the Martin Luther King part— you judge a person by their character, not the color of their skin.

Si.

I think this is a lot of hyperbole that is built around us. I don’t really think it’s as bad as it’s portrayed. I just don’t.

I agree.

I agree.

As a way to end this, with Patrick on, do you all think you’re going to get a fair hearing? Do you think your voice is going to be accurately represented?

Si.

No.

No.

It’s The New York Times.

[LAUGHS]

I’ve had too many interviews edited and editorials edited— no.

I think it will. I mean, Patrick was— he knew what he was walking into. And he wants to hear conservative voices. So I trust that he’s going to portray our words fairly.

I agree with Diana.

He was respectful.

We’re trusting you, Patrick.

Hey, listen, I really appreciate everything. And I understand the lack of trust. I really understand how divided this country is and how so many people have suffered in so many different ways, especially over the last year. I just am grateful that everybody was as honest and forthright and direct as possible. And I appreciate you letting me in and letting me listen and learn because I did learn things. And I personally see it as kind of a waste of time living on the planet if you’re not going to learn things and talk to people who are different than you. I really do hear what a lot of you were saying about social media and the silos that we live in. And you know, I’m just really grateful that you took the time out of your night to talk to us. So thank you.

And also can we celebrate Jeremiah, who puts his life out on the line? And I gave him a lot of shit at the beginning because that’s my job. But now I want to say, good for you. Thank you very much. We all appreciate it.

Thank you for your service.

And Ann, as well, who’s served.

Thank you very much.

And Kathryn’s husband.

Si.

No, you don’t get a chance to say thank you to the spouses. It’s only the person who’s— [LAUGHTER]

Hey, they’re the ones at home worrying about us.

100%

For what it’s worth, he’s the one keeping my great dane at bay so that he doesn’t interfere with this wonderful session.

Si.

I thought that was Louis’ dog barking in your screen, Kathryn. So—

It was mine. Sorry, that’s Aussie. [LAUGHS] He hears things. And that’s Aussie. [LAUGHTER]

I have a Saint Bernard. But she’s in the other room.

Lo intenté. [LAUGHS]

I have a lazy bulldog behind me.

Dogs unite us, except Ann— except Ann with that cat. Ann, your cat is so cute.

Si.

Yes, and her name is Puppy. [LAUGHTER]

God bless you all.